[gameprogrammer] Re: PC game Outsourcing

["Adrian Brown" <enliten@btinternet.com>]

Absolutly - I would say the best thing to do, whether you have a degree or
not, is to
a) Make sure you note on your C.V. that you were programming before you went
to college and worked on code outside of that required for the course.  It
shows that you are more than just another number coming through a degree.
b) Don't just apply to agencies and sit back.
c) Write something, anything, make a simple game - create a simple editor to
go with it, just a simple platform game with a level editor.  Send that with
your C.V. and some of the code to just about all the games companies you can
think of.
d) Email the companies every now and then (not every day, but say every 3-4
months enquiring about jobs, even small contract jobs).

Unfortunately though, a lot of jobs are filled via word of mouth, it's a
small industry!

-----Original Message-----
From: gameprogrammer-bounce@freelists.org
[mailto:gameprogrammer-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Richard T. Hawley
Sent: 27 April 2004 01:02
To: gameprogrammer@freelists.org
Subject: [gameprogrammer] Re: PC game Outsourcing

Well, just to throw my thoughts in the hat.... I graduated with honors two
years ago (BS comp sci), and certification in OOP, also worked as an intern
for over a year with Northrop Grumman. Northrop did not even make an attempt
to offer me a job, being told that they were on a hiring freeze, and since I
graduated, once the sheepskin was in my hand I couldn't even work as an
intern... so much for all that training huh... I then took odd jobs here and
there working for a temp agency (bussing tables, moving furniture etc.) for
about 5 months, essentially being unemployed (though not able to qualify for
unemployment as I wasn't fired) I did this till I found a job opportunity
where a person quit from my friend's company and desperately needed someone
to step in. The job wasn't programming, rather LAN administration. I had
some experience and I happened to beat out maybe 3 other resumes. I think it
was mostly luck. 
	Anyway the job happened to require a clearance, and it didn't take
too long for everything to check out. Once that was in hand, another part of
the company decided they needed my programming skills which leaves me where
I am today. Today, I'm doing the kind of programming I always dreamed about,
not game programming (though that would rock!), but developing advanced
concepts for our fighting forces, building models and simulations, solving
big world problems that I consider to be very important. Having to produce
finished products almost on a monthly basis has been a tremendous learning
experience, as someone mentioned earlier. From where I stand, it's the
combination of having the technical proficiency, as well as the analytical
and business skills that will give US engineers the advantage over foreign
markets. Put a clearance on top of that and you will most likely have
companies beating down your door. 
	If it's specifically game programming you want to do, my only advice
is to build a game from the ground up, look to your friends or college
buddies that have some good graphics skills, a sound effects and a few good
voices wont hurt (game type dependant). If you can bring it all together and
produce a game on your own, not the next Unreal or something of that level,
but something decent that is complete and playable, that is what the game
developers are looking for. They look for talent, and trust me, the number
of people who want to get into game programming outnumber the user-base of
this mailing list probably 10000 to 1 (I pulled that out of my butt), so the
competition is extremely rough. Maybe start with something specific and
manageable to your skill level, for example, a friend and I took Java over
the summer during college, our class was given a choice of pre-defined
projects ranging from producing a word-processor, to a fire-wall friendly
chat tool. We also had the option of doing our own thing, and my friend and
I developed a networked, multiplayer version of Atari pong, with up to 4
players. That was absolutely fun, my friend did most of the work on the
graphics/single player module, and I worked on most of the
networking/multiplayer version. In the end we had a pretty cool game, and
our teacher absolutely loved it. Maybe it's not enough to get a job with
Blizzard, but hell, it's a start.

Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: gameprogrammer-bounce@freelists.org
[mailto:gameprogrammer-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Brown
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 7:17 PM
To: gameprogrammer@freelists.org
Subject: [gameprogrammer] Re: PC game Outsourcing

As a matter of interest, what jobs are you looking at.  Im not familiar with
the US games industry job positions, but in the UK there are several
positions always around for junior programmers.  

If your expecting to walk into a role where your earning the same as someone
with 3+ years experience or think you will leapfrog over people who haven't
done a specialized course for game development then you may be heading to
earth with a bump.  

The UK industry doesn't really take any notice of these strange courses in
games development as they always tend to be out of date (although the
American ones are apparently better than the uk).  The experience gives you
one thing - the ability to finish a product, something a lot of programmers
think is all too easy.

Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: gameprogrammer-bounce@freelists.org
[mailto:gameprogrammer-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Fields
Sent: 27 April 2004 00:05
To: gameprogrammer@freelists.org
Subject: [gameprogrammer] Re: PC game Outsourcing

That's something I have to agree with, wholeheartedly. As someone just about

to leave school from a specialized course for game development, I still have

my reservations about whether I'd be able to get a job right away. My case 
is a little different from my classmates, as I've dabbled in things more 
than they have, and I have years of prior experience, but I'm still afraid 
that I'll not be able to get a job.

One thing I've noticed from EVERY job posting that I've read, is that 3+ 
years of previous experience in the industry is REQUIRED, as well as a 
degree in computer science. Now, explain to me how I can ever hope to 
accomplish that if EVERY company is looking for that. That's not too 
encouraging now, is it? Everyone wants top-notch people; the best the 
business has to offer. And they won't accept anything less. That's why I 
think most companies are leaving the US, because they haven't even tapped 
the resources in other countries.

I watched a documentary on TV about a Chinese game development school, and 
some of their students' work was amazing! There's also the fact that people 
only seem to like certain styles of games, and the companies that make those

games do very well. But when a smaller company tries to sell the idea or 
product to a publisher, and they're turned away because there's something 
better out on the market they're trying for. To me, this seems to be the 
decade of sequels. How many sequels to a high-selling game have you seen 
come out the past few years?

Another thing, publishers charge too damned much. There's no ifs, ands, or 
buts about it. People don't want to pay for games for that reason. And it's 
not going to get better on either side. Publishers complain that people 
aren't paying, so they're losing money and have to charge more... Consumers 
are complaining that the publishers charge too much, and so they refuse to 
pay. And it goes on and on and on...


From: "Jason Clark" <jclark@ccpu.com>
Reply-To: gameprogrammer@freelists.org
To: <gameprogrammer@freelists.org>
Subject: [gameprogrammer] Re: PC game Outsourcing
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:32:12 -0700

The one thing about off-shoring that I worry about is that when a company
like mine contracts overseas, the local work force they hire are senior
engineers and management types to watch over quality and bring the end
result together. What gets lost is the entry level positions, the kids right
out of school, where will they get their opportunity to become a senior
engineer?  I fear that local companies who don't invest a little in the
local work force will find that in another 10 years the workers they do have
available will be so poorly skilled and so distant from the 'cutting edge'
that they won't even be able to compete with foreign markets.
Just a thought,
Jason.

-----Original Message-----
From: gameprogrammer-bounce@freelists.org
[mailto:gameprogrammer-bounce@freelists.org]On Behalf Of grant hallman
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 3:00 PM
To: gameprogrammer@freelists.org
Subject: [gameprogrammer] Re: PC game Outsourcing


At 02:33 PM 26-04-04 -0500, you wrote:

[snip]

 >You want technical jobs back in the US you have to create companies that
 >hire people in the US.
 >
 >			Bob Pendleton

But you already have companies that would do that, that's not the problem.
No CEO just wakes up one morning and says, Hey, i wanna trip to Bangladesh,
let's see, why would i go there?

If u want jobs - tech, industrial, clothing, whatever - what u have to do
is create conditions that give big companies reason to hire in your
country. That comes down to a few possibilities:

(1) Local expertise - but that lasts only as long as it takes the next
generation to go thru school.

(2) Trade barriers - but those work both ways, and end up harming your own
jobs in another industry.

(3) Be competitive - IMO, the only long-term solution. How many hours
should a programmer - anywhere in the world - have to work to be able to
buy a TV, or a car?

Canada, where i live, has been next door to the US forever - a population
and economy about 10x our size. Trade barriers hurt both countries.
Nevertheless we compete well using (3), in areas where we do well -
communications, some manufacturing jobs, med research, and agriculture and
natural resources. I don't think there's a better way. "Buy American", or
"buy Canadian", just does not get people to pay $25 for a T-shirt or $900
for a 27" TV. Each person decides on their own, I'm not gonna spend an
extra 75% for a local-made TV, or car, ot pair of socks, so some local
union worker can make more money than his oversees competition. Heck, if u
did that, then u'd need higher wages yourself, and the product u made would
cost more, and the other guy would need higher wages too.

The good news is, the more efficiently things get made, the more things the
average person can affort. All this is a transition from local to global
economy, and i doubt there's any way to go back.

regards - grant

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