[gameprogrammer] Re: PC game Outsourcing

["Kevin Fields" <drunkendruid@hotmail.com>]

I've been reading the job listings on Gamasutra. Although, I'm not looking 
into getting into the US, as I know things are sensitive between the US and 
Canada (Where I'm from). I was more looking at Canadian positions and ones 
in the UK. I had been in touch with Rob Quill about that, actually, and he 
keeps asking me when I'm moving to the UK. :)

The specialized school isn't what I'm more interested in getting a job with. 
Over the past couple years of being here, I've been the lead programmer on a 
development team that's been working on a small 3D game. I'm in charge of 
developing the tools (plugins and exporters, mostly), as well as designing 
and programming the game engine. And we're nearing completion of our Alpha 
version (within the next couple weeks).

The school focuses on more than just game development, as it's a technology 
school, and is kept fairly up to date. We're working on 3D games, games for 
mobile devices, as well as games for the Playstation2 (which is horrible to 
work on, by the way). That's just some of the stuff we're taught. As well as 
designing games, and producing the documentation for a complete product.

Personally, I enjoy developing things for consoles, even though there isn't 
much useful documentation on it. I also enjoy developing tools, because I 
like a challenge which someone will find use for the final product.


From: "Adrian Brown" <enliten@btinternet.com>
Reply-To: gameprogrammer@freelists.org
To: <gameprogrammer@freelists.org>
Subject: [gameprogrammer] Re: PC game Outsourcing
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 00:16:30 +0100

As a matter of interest, what jobs are you looking at.  Im not familiar with
the US games industry job positions, but in the UK there are several
positions always around for junior programmers.

If your expecting to walk into a role where your earning the same as someone
with 3+ years experience or think you will leapfrog over people who haven't
done a specialized course for game development then you may be heading to
earth with a bump.

The UK industry doesn't really take any notice of these strange courses in
games development as they always tend to be out of date (although the
American ones are apparently better than the uk).  The experience gives you
one thing - the ability to finish a product, something a lot of programmers
think is all too easy.

Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: gameprogrammer-bounce@freelists.org
[mailto:gameprogrammer-bounce@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Fields
Sent: 27 April 2004 00:05
To: gameprogrammer@freelists.org
Subject: [gameprogrammer] Re: PC game Outsourcing

That's something I have to agree with, wholeheartedly. As someone just about

to leave school from a specialized course for game development, I still have

my reservations about whether I'd be able to get a job right away. My case
is a little different from my classmates, as I've dabbled in things more
than they have, and I have years of prior experience, but I'm still afraid
that I'll not be able to get a job.

One thing I've noticed from EVERY job posting that I've read, is that 3+
years of previous experience in the industry is REQUIRED, as well as a
degree in computer science. Now, explain to me how I can ever hope to
accomplish that if EVERY company is looking for that. That's not too
encouraging now, is it? Everyone wants top-notch people; the best the
business has to offer. And they won't accept anything less. That's why I
think most companies are leaving the US, because they haven't even tapped
the resources in other countries.

I watched a documentary on TV about a Chinese game development school, and
some of their students' work was amazing! There's also the fact that people
only seem to like certain styles of games, and the companies that make those

games do very well. But when a smaller company tries to sell the idea or
product to a publisher, and they're turned away because there's something
better out on the market they're trying for. To me, this seems to be the
decade of sequels. How many sequels to a high-selling game have you seen
come out the past few years?

Another thing, publishers charge too damned much. There's no ifs, ands, or
buts about it. People don't want to pay for games for that reason. And it's
not going to get better on either side. Publishers complain that people
aren't paying, so they're losing money and have to charge more... Consumers
are complaining that the publishers charge too much, and so they refuse to
pay. And it goes on and on and on...


From: "Jason Clark" <jclark@ccpu.com>
Reply-To: gameprogrammer@freelists.org
To: <gameprogrammer@freelists.org>
Subject: [gameprogrammer] Re: PC game Outsourcing
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:32:12 -0700

The one thing about off-shoring that I worry about is that when a company
like mine contracts overseas, the local work force they hire are senior
engineers and management types to watch over quality and bring the end
result together. What gets lost is the entry level positions, the kids right
out of school, where will they get their opportunity to become a senior
engineer?  I fear that local companies who don't invest a little in the
local work force will find that in another 10 years the workers they do have
available will be so poorly skilled and so distant from the 'cutting edge'
that they won't even be able to compete with foreign markets.
Just a thought,
Jason.

-----Original Message-----
From: gameprogrammer-bounce@freelists.org
[mailto:gameprogrammer-bounce@freelists.org]On Behalf Of grant hallman
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 3:00 PM
To: gameprogrammer@freelists.org
Subject: [gameprogrammer] Re: PC game Outsourcing


At 02:33 PM 26-04-04 -0500, you wrote:

[snip]

  >You want technical jobs back in the US you have to create companies that
  >hire people in the US.
  >
  >			Bob Pendleton

But you already have companies that would do that, that's not the problem.
No CEO just wakes up one morning and says, Hey, i wanna trip to Bangladesh,
let's see, why would i go there?

If u want jobs - tech, industrial, clothing, whatever - what u have to do
is create conditions that give big companies reason to hire in your
country. That comes down to a few possibilities:

(1) Local expertise - but that lasts only as long as it takes the next
generation to go thru school.

(2) Trade barriers - but those work both ways, and end up harming your own
jobs in another industry.

(3) Be competitive - IMO, the only long-term solution. How many hours
should a programmer - anywhere in the world - have to work to be able to
buy a TV, or a car?

Canada, where i live, has been next door to the US forever - a population
and economy about 10x our size. Trade barriers hurt both countries.
Nevertheless we compete well using (3), in areas where we do well -
communications, some manufacturing jobs, med research, and agriculture and
natural resources. I don't think there's a better way. "Buy American", or
"buy Canadian", just does not get people to pay $25 for a T-shirt or $900
for a 27" TV. Each person decides on their own, I'm not gonna spend an
extra 75% for a local-made TV, or car, ot pair of socks, so some local
union worker can make more money than his oversees competition. Heck, if u
did that, then u'd need higher wages yourself, and the product u made would
cost more, and the other guy would need higher wages too.

The good news is, the more efficiently things get made, the more things the
average person can affort. All this is a transition from local to global
economy, and i doubt there's any way to go back.

regards - grant

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